Great, a standard that is complete, utter garbage? So what if the numbers don’t make any sense, right? They sort of back part of my argument, so they are “the standard.” Do I need handpuppets here? There are very few seats in the Can under $38. Most upper bowl seats are well above $38. The entire club level is now $87, and the cheapest seats in the lower bowl are near $100. How anyone can come up with any formula that computes the “Average Price” in the Pepsi Center for Av games to be $38 is beyond me completely. And flat out wrong.

Sorry, I’m still not buying this. You don’t pack the house for a decade — when other franchises were in attendance decline — if the ticket prices are that out of hand or unreasonable. I think they’ve become a problem now due to other factors — the lockout, the Avs’ on-ice success and the changing face of the team.

I’ve largely kept quiet on this , because I thought my post addressing Jez’s old post did a good job of addressing Denver’s problems. It’s the smallest 4-market sports town there is and so it’s tougher to pull in harder times.

But I think there’s more too it than that. When the Avs first won the cup they became THE ticket in town. They were the kings of town, now that those cups have started to fade to memories they aren’t the trendy ticket in town anymore. That doesn’t mean they aren’t popular, they are (4th highest rating for the winter classic, strong local ratings, etc). But some of those trendy, and very rich fans, have faded away from the Avs. TV numbers show there is still considerable interest, but as Tape has shown above, the Avs are still pricing games as if the Avs are still the hardest ticket in town to get.

The Avs, as an organization, have been spoiled. They have never had to market their product since moving. The Avs have always created a fantastic local buzz. The lockout depleted their season ticket base, but the Avs were still selling out so they didn’t market the team or do a good job marketing. They took their popularity for granted, and it’s kind of coming back to bite them now. The buzz is gone now. The Avs are no longer new, or championship quality, so now it’s up to the Avs to do a better job of promoting itself. In the meantime they need more family packs and promotional gigs to get the season ticket base up.

But the numbers do show a serious side of the problem, one that other franchises share, and are considered the primary solution. Without being “desperate,” the Avs are looking into that solution. It’s just more fun and exciting to say “desperate.”

And as for the part of your post that says it’s “multi-faceted,” you are correct, it is. This is oart of that.

I’d be happy to buy you a beer. My show, however, does not make it to the Garden State. Are you going to be in DC this summer?

I haven’t read Dater enough to know this, although his quickly-deleted anti-ESPN tirade might have been a tip-off. If that’s how he approaches the gig, or how the Denver Post views it, what a joke — he’s the beat writer no matter where he’s writing, and calling a marketing scheme “desperate” is a news-maker for someone like me that doesn’t understand the hack logic of his many roles.

Do better research next time there is a post about attendance. Do more research, at least. There are plenty of numbers out there, they are easy to find, and with a little creativity, there can be some interesting reading. Too often, the post about attendance lead with snark, and finish with little else. It’s well past time for the Fanhouse to step it up.

Well, there are going to be posts that are a little more in-depth (http://sports.aol.com/fanhouse/2007/12/03/trashing-the-charity-point-re-imagining-the-nhl-standings) and ones that simply point readers to interesting trends or stories in the MSM and blogosphere. I thought Jes had already gone balls-deep on the Avs attendance; my post was about Dater’s analysis. But point taken — I think anytime attendance comes up, it should be handled with a little more attention to detail.

Where was the complaining about ticket prices when they were selling out? Buried behind the rah-rah of a sellout streak. If the tickets are selling, what’s the problem, right?

Sorry, I’m still not buying this. You don’t pack the house for a decade — when other franchises were in attendance decline — if the ticket prices are that out of hand or unreasonable. I think they’ve become a problem now due to other factors — the lockout, the Avs’ on-ice success and the changing face of the team.

But like I said, Tape – agree to disagree. I think, at the end of the day, we can still get together as bloggers-in-arms and have you buy me a beer.

Some of my criticism had to do with Dater, but most of my criticism has to do with your post, and to a point, Jes’. Dater has is doing what most bloggers and online writers do, use extremism and alarmist language to hammer home a point. I see it all the time in hockey blogging, the title of your post being a prime example, and it should get called for what it is.

Remember, Dater wasn’t quoted as a beat writer, he was quoted as a blogger. His hockey blog is very separate from his regular journalism. He can’t combine the two, as they are two separate gigs. If he did, he would have to compromise his journalism side. It’s a debate for another day, how the MSM dances between the blogging side and the journalism, but he was not using “desperate” in his column.

The economy is only part of what determines ticket prices. The economy in Denver now is not the same as the economy over the last ten years. It never is, anywhere. The prices in Detroit are much lower than in Colorado, and they still have problems. What I did was show that, and do the work to say what the situation is not. I’m OK with wild speculation, like the Jes post, but the numbers you were looking at were last year’s numbers, and weren’t the target of this price stynt. . And those certainly aren’t the numbers that the people who set the ticket prices are looking at. Mine probably aren’t either, but mine are current, easy to find, and useful. The numbers you used aren’t. It’s another side of the story, and one that I think was ignored in the brief post on the Fanhouse.

I don’t think you guys are piling on the franchise. It’s “news,” or debate, or part of the conversation. Keeping the hockey teams honest is a part of hockey blogging. As part of the conversation, you are going to get dissent. I hope I made it clear in my post that I like your writing, and I like you as a person. I will, being and Avs fan, defend those of us who attend the games, and pay good money, sometimes after bad, to see the games. And if I think the research can use some work, I’m more than happy to say so.

In fact, I’m calling out the Fanhouse right now. Do better research next time there is a post about attendance. Do more research, at least. There are plenty of numbers out there, they are easy to find, and with a little creativity, there can be some interesting reading. Too often, the post about attendance lead with snark, and finish with little else. It’s well past time for the Fanhouse to step it up. Anyone can do snark. Jes gets called out for lack of research in his post about the Devils attendance. If the bloggers are going to keep the hockey teams, league, and MSM honest, or at least on their toes, there is no reason you guys can do the same.

There are a lot of factors involved, and I don’t know them all. I think Jes was correct in a few of his assumptions and speculation, but has very little understanding of a city that has more than one sport, such as Denver. But again, any research would have helped his cause. Where was the complaining about ticket prices when they were selling out? Buried behind the rah-rah of a sellout streak. If the tickets are selling, what’s the problem, right? A family of four was still rarely able to afford the tickets, and when they could, the had to pick and choose when they went to games. There wasn’t as visible opposition because everything was status quo. Problem? What problem?

Just so you know, I mulled over this post all day. I reread it and reread it. I wanted to make sure I wasn’t just being a jerk, and had something to say. I think I did. No disrespect taken or given.

My FanHouse post was mainly to point readers to the alarmist tone of a Denver beat writer regarding the Avs’ attendance. When a guy like Dater — who isn’t exactly Larry Brooks when it comes to hyperbole — analyzes the Colorado price cut as “Desperate,” then that’s news.

You’ve done a great job here explaining the high cost of hockey tickets. But I wonder how much attention you and other Colorado fans gave this pressing issue during the 487 straight games in which every seat was filled.

Your critique of the FCI was interesting, but it remains the standard for sports business analysis. I was merely using it to show that, compared to the rest of the NHL, a night out watching the Avalanche wasn’t exceptionally more expensive than seeing any comparable team. But I’ll take your concerns about it as a source under advisory.

One of the passages from my post you didn’t cite:

“This was a sensitive, multi-faceted issue that could say something greater about the current course of the franchise, rather than simply counting how many fannies are filling the seats.”

Your rebuttal seems to be several variations of “it’s the economy, stupid”; yet that doesn’t account for season ticket declines that began in 2006, according to the Denver Post. Was that the lockout? The lack of the same kind of star power the Avs had in the glory years? That, over a decade in Denver, some of the shine is off the franchise? Like I said on FanHouse — there are a number of reasons why the team is seeing empty seats and slashing prices. I’m just not ready to concede that it’s primarily an economic problem when economics weren’t an issue for over a decade.

I can see how it might seem we’re piling on the franchise, with my Dater post following my friend Jes’s blowtorch of a blog last month. It’s not my intention; but clearly there’s something happening in the previously impervious Denver hockey market that demands the same kind of attention we’ve given eroding gate in Detroit.

But hey: To each his own. These dust-ups are why we’re bloggers. Not disrespect on either end of the conversation, I hope.